r 12 engine in a r4 1974 ?

[porsche 928]

hi i,m all new here .g,day to you all, could i build a r12 engine in a r4 1974? what els do i have to change ,gearbox, brakes,and if so what would fit ?sorry to be that short for now,have to go to work regards , cor.

 

[Pavel]

hi i,m all new here .g,day to you all, could i build a r12 engine in a r4 1974? what els do i have to change ,gearbox, brakes,and if so what would fit ?sorry to be that short for now,have to go to work regards , cor.

The R 12 engine is oppositely supported in the car, it isn´t? Than you will have one speed gear forwards and four reverse gears? Greetings from Prague Pavel

 

[angel]

This is no problem if you use a gearbox from a clockwise-turning R4 engine (956 or 1108).
The problem is, the R12 has the water pump on the timing chain end of the head, this means even if you swap the pump and rectangulas plate (possible I think), you will not have the camshaft pulley on the flywheel side to drive the water pump and alternator. So I think it is not reasonable (Paul can you confirm this?)

 

[Pavel]

Electric waterpump?

This is no problem if you use a gearbox from a clockwise-turning R4 engine (956 or 1108).
The problem is, the R12 has the water pump on the timing chain end of the head, this means even if you swap the pump and rectangulas plate (possible I think), you will not have the camshaft pulley on the flywheel side to drive the water pump and alternator. So I think it is not reasonable (Paul can you confirm this?)

And what about an electric waterpump? You can get a neat solution and a few horses into the bargain Pavel
P.S.: I would like try it. The R 12 cars and their spare parts are cheap to buy here in Czech. How can I easy tell the clockwise-turning R4 gearbox from the anticlock? I mean, when the gearbox is removed separately from the car and from the engine?

 

[entwistlecymru]

Lotus did exactly the same thing in the Europa. The Crownwheel (or is it pinion?) is swapped to the opposite side of the diff casing so the box effectively works backwards.

I'd have thought an R12 would have a blank over the end of the cam where there would be a pulley on the R4. If so it should be possible to get a pulley to fit, so you could use an R4/5 water pump. I don't think Renault would make huge changes to engines just because they fit in a totally different way in a totally different car. That would be too much like hard work

I quite fancy fitting a Dini Turbo engine to a 12. It would make a nice Q-car. There's one on eBay at the moment....hmmmmmmmmmm:wink:

 

[entwistlecymru]

BTW what size R12 engine do you want to fit? If its the 1289 can't you find an R5/Le Car to pick the bits off or were you unlucky enough not to get them down under?

If its the bigger ie1600 engine, get in touch wit Mr Reno 139 aka Paul. He's done the same conversion in his R4 Plein Air

 

[Pavel]

R 12 engine in R 4

I like the idea to fit the R 12 engine to R 4. I think, could there be 1300 cc capacity and to rebore the cylinders from 73 to 75 mm. So we get 1400 cc.

 

[mr-reno-139]

mmm (NOW EDITED AS BIT MORE TIME TO REPLY)
suppose i better make some comments here (as i have been the silliest with engine swaps, on this forum at least)
right where shall we start ?
if we assume you have a good R4 with engine problems and a good supply of r12 bits i can see your line of thinking

however unless your R4 is 956 or 1108 already ,(which in1974 was built as 845 or poss 782 cc )you will be kept busy sourcing lots of additional parts

so unless you also have a donor 1108 r4 and plenty of time i would think carefully before you end up with a big pile of bits that nearly!!but not quite fit together

the 1.3 and 1.4 r12/r18tl/volvo343 engines are designedto have water pump and pulleys etc on opposite end of engine and the head is cast differently to allow circulation

yes by cutting lumps off the block and fitting different camshaft ,machining head etc it will bolt to 1108 gear box and 1108 engine mounts will bolt to r12 block casting
only r4/ r5 /r6 manifolds and carbs will allow exhaust pipe to fit (28IF will be useless on power though
to anyone also considering using 1.4 later 5 engine the port spacings are not compatible with r4/5 /12 manifolds etc

hope this all makes sense ,i can assure you i have personally tried most mix and match combinations of renault car parts built 1970-1995

if your serious i will discuss this further by phone as too many words to type step by step instructions here
paul

 

[Pavel]

mmm (NOW EDITED AS BIT MORE TIME TO REPLY)
suppose i better make some comments here (as i have been the silliest with engine swaps, on this forum at least)
right where shall we start ?
if we assume you have a good R4 with engine problems and a good supply of r12 bits i can see your line of thinking

however unless your R4 is 956 or 1108 already ,(which in1974 was built as 845 or poss 782 cc )you will be kept busy sourcing lots of additional parts

so unless you also have a donor 1108 r4 and plenty of time i would think carefully before you end up with a big pile of bits that nearly!!but not quite fit together

the 1.3 and 1.4 r12/r18tl/volvo343 engines are designedto have water pump and pulleys etc on opposite end of engine and the head is cast differently to allow circulation

yes by cutting lumps off the block and fitting different camshaft ,machining head etc it will bolt to 1108 gear box and 1108 engine mounts will bolt to r12 block casting
only r4/ r5 /r6 manifolds and carbs will allow exhaust pipe to fit (28IF will be useless on power though
to anyone also considering using 1.4 later 5 engine the port spacings are not compatible with r4/5 /12 manifolds etc

hope this all makes sense ,i can assure you i have personally tried most mix and match combinations of renault car parts built 1970-1995

if your serious i will discuss this further by phone as too many words to type step by step instructions here
paul

I have a very bad R4 (restauration project) and I´m thinking about an interesting solution. Here are some R 12 (Dacia 1300) engines cheap or free available, but R 4 is very rare here. However I have the 849 cc engine in my R4, so I need an other gearbox - if I good understand. Pavel

 

[Pavel]

Renault engine in Volvo?

mmm (NOW EDITED AS BIT MORE TIME TO REPLY)

the 1.3 and 1.4 r12/r18tl/volvo343 engines are designedto have water pump and pulleys etc on opposite end of engine and the head is cast differently to allow circulation

There is R 12 engine in Volvo 343 there?

 

[angel]

Paul said them all. I had the same thought with the Twingo engine: It may fit but why go so far, especially when there is an easier way?
Yes, the 343 has the known Cleon engine!
About converting the gearbox for opposite-turning engine, we had discussed it some years ago on this forum...it can be done but it will be detrimental for the crownwheel/pinion teeth. I have never seen drawings of the Lotus Europa final drive but it must have helical cut gears (not hypoid), so that swapping the crownwheel is no problem. The same goes for the earlier R4 aluminum casing gearboxes, in theory the crownwheel can be moved to the other side, hownver I have not tried it yet!

 

[mr-reno-139]

but even swapping diff round you will still need a large amount of additional parts including bell housing /engine mountings manifolds /camshaft all of which can only be found on later 5 bearing 956/1108/1289/1397 R4/R5/R6 engined cars (possibly dshafts on pre 73 R4)
i could source and supply all parts you would need but it would be much more economic for you to look closer to home
dont forget once engine is fitted you will still need to remount rad and modify/ change bonnet and not sure about stopping power with drum brakes and bigger engine!!

regarding volvo engines quick history lesson
DAF used renault engines in early 1970s in 55 and 66 model (R12 type setup 1108 and 1289 cc)
volvo bought out DAF and carried on using 1397 engine in 1977?until 1985 ?340 series
this was virtually identical to 18tl and fuego (also using 1721cc as used in R21and 9/11)
renault also thought it was good enough to power renault trafic vans
british work men found out otherwise !!

Angel
as we are now onto volvo engines and you were discussing valve guide oil seals earlier
thought you may be interested to know that they fitted stem seals to their versions

next question?
regards paul

 

[angel]

as we are now onto volvo engines and you were discussing valve guide oil seals earlier
thought you may be interested to know that they fitted stem seals to their versions

next question?
regards paul

Very interesting...do you remember if the valve guides had the same shape at the top as on the Renault engines?