R5 Engine and Box into R4

[Geoff in the Gully]

I'm have the opportunity to get the engine and other mechanicals from an R5 that's about to take it's last journey - to the scrappie, having done a most impressive job of rusting into discrete pieces. The working bits apparently are in good condition.

I'm told the R5 engine is a 'direct bolt in replacement' for the R4 engine. While I don't really doubt it, I'd like to confirm that if anyone can. My target R4 is a '65 model - with the early 7-degree suspension. The R5 engine is a 1289cc - Sierra type same series as fitted to later R4s. R5s are rare here so the 'upgrade' is attractive. Pity it's not the Alpine . . .

The bigger question though is can I use the R5 gearbox? And if so, what's do I do about drive shafts? Do the R5 ones fit the R4 wheel or the R4 driveshafts fit the R5 gearbox.

Of course I could just get the gear and enjoy myself trying all the permutations, but anyones got some experience here it would be much appreciated.

Geoff

 

[malcolm]

That sounds like fun. Definitely save the car and use it for something - these days over here we probably see more kangaroos on the road than early Renault 5s. And we don't even have kangaroos.

The engine won't bolt straight into a '65 car. You'll need to fit the engine and gearbox together and the gearbox is longer than your 3 speed so you would need modifications to the front crossmember (change to later type after 1971 ish).

I think the R5 driveshafts will fit. They are the same as R4 GTLs. Later ones are supposed to be a bit longer but supply of early ones dried up over here at one point and plenty later ones have been fitted to earlier cars. It might not be perfect. Keep the early ones just in case - they will likely fit too.

The cooling system might need a look. For my Gordini engine conversion I used the later GTL 1108cc cooling system which has a larger radiator set forward in the car with an electric fan. I don't think the original radiator will fit with the Sierra engine so something has to be done. If you move the radiator forward you need to cut off the stays that support the bonnet. It is fine to do this but the bonnet gets a bit floppy.

Only other thing I can think of is the handbrake on RHD cars will foul the fuel pump on the later engines. I moved the handbrake on my conversion but it would be much more sensible to fit an electric fuel pump.

 

[Geoff in the Gully]

Thanks for the pointers Malcolm, I hadn't thought of the radiator aspect. I'll have to make sure I collect the radiator with the rest of the gear.

 

[elch101]

I woud suggest to look for a broken down GTL or F6 with discbrakes and to convert the hole suspension, brakes, steering, kooling system etc. May sound difficult but it's easyer than to tinker a lot of self made parts. I'm quite sure a '65 suspension with a 64 hp engine will be a strange ride :-). Lot of part from a GTL like bellhousing and input shaft can make a conversion more elegant.

 

[Geoff in the Gully]

I agree changing the whole suspension etc may be easier, however they stopped R4s here in Australia in 1966 - we never got any with the later suspension.
And it would be a pricey option to source all the parts from OS - weight is the killer.

 

[Geoff in the Gully]

So I got to see the R5 engine today and it looked alright, as much as one can tell by just looking.
But I saw that it was a floor shift, with the gearbox selector going in the side of the gearbox rather than in the top as an R4 does.

I know the earliest R5's have the dash-mounted gearshift like the R4 and presumed the gearboxes had its selector on top.
So some questions - was there an R5 model with the 1100 or 1289 cc engine with the dash-mouted gearshift?
If not, then I shouldn't expect to find a gearbox to match with a top mounted selector shaft.

Is is possible (practical?) to change the side selector to a top selector? Has anyone tried this?
I don't want to put a floor shift into a R4 - that would lose one of the R4's signature features.

 

[malcolm]

That's a point. You would need a 4 speed Renault 4 gearbox. The 5 gearbox can be converted using the top cover from a Renault 4.

I don't know if the bellhousing is the same length as the R4. It's different on the 5 speed (which also needs a selector shaft changing) See http://www.renault4.co.uk/gordini-gearbox.htm for the 5 speed.

 

[elch101]

The R5 4-Speed bellhousing is about one centimeter longer than R4. The input shaft aswell. The outer lever from the clutch fork is 90 degree different.

That's really bad luck, that You can't get a late model R4 in Your land of the jumping kangaroo. What about R5 -'84 or R6? Would make the hole thing so much easier for You.

 

[Geoff in the Gully]

That's a point. You would need a 4 speed Renault 4 gearbox. The 5 gearbox can be converted using the top cover from a Renault 4.

I don't know if the bellhousing is the same length as the R4. It's different on the 5 speed (which also needs a selector shaft changing) See http://www.renault4.co.uk/gordini-gearbox.htm for the 5 speed.

I'm feeling quite encouraged hearing that the gearbox can be converted to an umbrella selector. But I suspect all is not yet easy.

The R4 had two 4-speed gearboxes. The early version was a 3-speed with an extra gear bolted on the front and a unusual shift pattern.
The later one had a different squarer casing and a conventional pattern.

Here in the antipodes, any 4-speed R4 gearbox is a rarity and they are pretty much all the early modified 3-speed ones apart from some individually imported vehicles.
I have a surfeit of 3-speed boxes - clearly the most durable part on the early R4 - but I do have one 4-speed, or at least all the parts to assemble one as it came to me in pieces.
Would I be right in thinking this is not the kind to take the top cover from for the R5 box.

If so, what are my chances of picking up a top cover from where they are (relatively) plentiful?
I don't like the thought of disabling a good gearbox just for the cover but if there's one that's already cactus it could be a donor.