Strange bell noise from engine

[malcolm]

I'm playing with a R5 TX and the engine is making a bell-like noise at idle. The noise appears to be coming from the rear of the engine and goes away at higher revs. Sounds like something is lightly touching against either the rocker cover, timing chain cover or sump.

Here's a short video demonstrating the noise (sound is a bit distorted - it's a clear bell like the ones churches use to wake you up on Sundays).

http://www.renault4.co.uk/images/engine-bell-noise.swf

Any ideas? Would it be the timing chain? The engine has covered about 60,000 miles and the only physical faults I'm aware of are a cylinder not firing well at idle (need to check compressions) and a pre-engaging starter that doesn't, though the car was said to have had overheating problems.

 

[reggie]

church bells

can i see a dent in the sump ? sounds like crank web hitting inside of sump - its a light noise - timing chain noise would be heavier i think because cover is smaller-put your hand on the sump while its running see if you can feel it-ime half deaf with too much rock music so it could be ac dc on the stereo also
Reg

 

[malcolm]

The sump looks straight. I've not been around properly with a screwdriver listening stick yet. Might be worth getting the car on stands and seeing what I can get to underneath as with the engine set so far back it's tricky to get to the rear from the top.

Right, done that. Difficult to track down the noise but tapping the sump makes a similar noise. Sump appears to have been removed in the past and the flywheel is rubbing against the gasket. Ought not to be enough.

 

[Steve Hennessey]

Sounds like the timing chain loose because the hydraulic tensioner has packed up and / or the oil feeding the tensioner is not getting past the little filter that is in line between the rear main bearing and the tensioner.
Is there a possibility that the car has done more than 60,000? It sounds like a very worn engine. I am 100% sure it's the chain although I have been known to be wrong!!

Time to get the engine hoist out!

 

[malcolm]

Thanks Steve. I was hoping you would reply. I've never had that noise before but I was sure you would have.

Looking down the filler cap it looks like there might be some oil gunge in the thing. Probably needs to come out for a good clean if nothing else. Also it idles like a bag of nails.

The car and engine look clean so 60k is probably likely. But I don't imagine it's had all the oil changes it deserved over the last 28 years.

 

[Steve Hennessey]

If the engine has not had it's regular oil changes then it is possible that the strainer at the bottom of the oil pump could be partially blocked with carbon particles. Also it's worth checking the oil pump for wear. I would question why the sump has been removed at some point. All will be revealed soon, no doubt.

 

[malcolm]

Not that soon.

I was wondering whether it might make a good run around as Ermintrude will need to come off the road for a de-rust. But not so good if the engine has to come out in addition to bits of rust, tyres, radiator, brakes, suspension etc. Might go on the back burner.

 

[Steve Hennessey]

I can help you out with a rad. Got a Mk1 5TL I'm breaking - all I want is the engine!!!

 

[David M]

R5 Mk 1 TL

all I want is the engine

My example downunder was a 1974 TL and it had a 956cc motor*.

What are your plans, Steve?

The standard "Hennessey upgrade" or something different?

956cc doesn't seem to me to be an improvement on your big bore GTL motors that you have over there.

*I may be missing something - that would not be unusual.

But, more info and even some pics would be good!

Cheers,

David

 

[Steve Hennessey]

David, I have a standard 1100cc TL Renault 5 and the engine and box will fit the 4 so I want to hang onto that and sell the rest. The late Roodini had the 'hot up kit' so that isn't available. Externally the engine is no different to yours and there are plenty of engine photos on this forum.
I know that many people want to fit larger or more powerful engines to their 4's but I'm one of those boring types who likes to keep things pretty much standard.

 

[David M]

Standard

types who likes to keep things pretty much standard.

That's the issue isn't it.
I agree that a mint condition original is the highest level of love that can be had.

Quote; pretty much standard.

At what point, when you start to fit non-original bits, does it cease to be genuine. At the edge of the world where I live I have 2 cars that I think have been butchered by mechanics.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that ANY R4 is better than a scrapped one.
If the owner can bring the dynamics from the last millenium to this one then I would cautiously applaud that.

I guess that I'm saying that the loyal owner needs two. Original and wild - just like Malcolm..

The fact that the Renault parts bin allows "improvements" is certainly an encouragement to make the R4 more modern.

I'm open to suggestion.

David

 

[malcolm]

It's personal preference. I'm a big fan of the Henessey Hot Up Kit, but otherwise Ermintrude is standard. I do feel sometimes that a slightly bigger engine might be nice. I'm still hoping to have the opportunity to try a bigger engine out driving down to the Kent run.

What I don't get on with are aftermarket modifications. I had an MGB once and modified it with aftermarket parts and all of them, without exception, were badly designed rubbish that just didn't work properly. They all came off again (and as they were desirable easily found new homes via eBay).

Renaults are fairly safe - most mods we might do involve parts from other Renaults, and it's rare that they can't be changed back to standard.

 

[angel]

I have a friend with an all-original 1975 Export, French import, still with its original 782cc engine, and having covered around (only) 150.000 kilometers. Right now I am rebuilding a 1108cc engine to fit on it, as well as GTL disc brakes and rear drums. When we first talked about this, I did not agree, I liked the running of the tiny engine, even though it was underpowered, it ran sweetly. Plus, i am a big fan of originality on such vehicles.
His point of view was that, he wanted the R4 to drive it on long journeys or mountaineous roads and enjoy it like any R4 should be enjoyed! With the small engine, he ended looking at it and taking it for small trips. Certainly not the use an R4 was thought to have! So I had nothing to do but agree wholeheartedly with him!

 

[malcolm]

With the Gordini making the same noise (same base engine) I've done a little more investigation on that. Also an engine test technician had a look .

We've agreed it's probably the timing chain flapping around and touching it's housing. On the Gordini it only happens below about 800 or 900rpm, and it's quiet at higher engine speeds.

He suggested not quite enough oil pressure on the older engines for the hydraulic tensioner to properly tension the timing chain at idle, but it ought to be OK at higher engine speeds when it is properly tensioned.

 

[angel]

On 1108cc engines, there is a rubber or plastic pad on the inside of the timing chain covers, on the opposite side of the chain tensioner. Maybe this is missing, or not fitted on 1397 engines?