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Gordini Head Gasket and Investigation

Malcom give Dave Wheeler a ring he has been modifying and racing these engines in the R8s for years and may well identify your bong.
The tensioner looks in the right place I seem to remember an oil hole and a small gauze somewhere in or by the tensioner.Dave or mr Renault should know.
You will find Dave's number on the club website or I can PM you.
It is easy to disturb the bottom liner seals when removing the head on the 5G engine and they will not reseal without removing them and replacing the seal.
Make sure the seating is rust free and very clean they do crust up a bit.
Parts for the 5 G engine are available from meca parts in france if you cannot find what you need here.
http://www.mecaparts.com/sommaires.php?col=R5&sortie=html&lang=0

Gary
 
Thanks Gary. I think it must be the bottom liner seals I've disturbed. They don't tend to be a problem on the 1108 engines.

I'm pretty sure the bong was light contact between the timing chain and the guide on the cover, but that's the sort of thing the guide will be there for in the first place which makes me uneasy about throwing money at it and expecting that to fix the problem especially with the chain being so inaccessible.

I'll give Dave a call. Timing chain and tension are cheap enough, but there could also be something as daft as a locator for the cover or sound damping that stops the bong missing. Want to make sure I get rid of the bong as it's a very annoying noise.
 
Malcolm sorry to hear of all the extra work you've got on.
When we used to decoke or do valves on the wet liner engines we would take all the head bolts out but leave the middle bolt near to distributor in (the dowel should be under this one)
Undo the bolt half a turn then with a copper hammer move the head sideways.When you have got it to move you can lift the head without pulling a liner.
 
Aye - did all that. The Haynes manual suggests undoing the bolt in the middle near the distributor by a full turn. I'm wondering if half a turn or three quarters might have been better. Though the gasket was well stuck and it took a 4 foot bar between the alternator mounting and the block to shift.

What should we suggest to anyone else who has a block with wet liners? I've had trouble with them on Citroens, I've been fine on the 1108 R4s, but not so good again on the 1397. A good thought might be to check the liner positions after removing the head - if they look like they might have moved sideways then pull the engine and replace the liner seals. I had a niggle that the top of one of my liners might have been to one side by 1mm but didn't measure at the time. Didn't think to do it.

For me I think the engine is making me rebuild it by stealth. I thought it was perfectly good, but it reckoned it deserved at least £500 of fettling.
 
I've ordered bits - for a full rebuild!

All the bits that were in there were in decent enough condition. It's only done about 60,000 miles which is the equivalent of 10,000 miles for BMC engines I've had apart in the past.

But the oil pump is destroying it's bearing for some reason, the timing chain only seems to be available in a kit with the sprockets, and gaskets are expensive. The difference between replacing the bits that need replacing and a full rebuild with new bearings, pistons and liners is only £400.

So I've spent money. Hate doing that, but on the upside £400 is really cheap for a full rebuild. Downside is £1200 is awfully expensive for a quick head gasket swap.

Updates next week when shiny bits start arriving.
 
Good decision

Malcolm,

Do it once - do it right. Buy cheaply buy twice. All of that: you're doing the right thing

Charliemouse

malcolm said:
I've ordered bits - for a full rebuild!

All the bits that were in there were in decent enough condition. It's only done about 60,000 miles which is the equivalent of 10,000 miles for BMC engines I've had apart in the past.

But the oil pump is destroying it's bearing for some reason, the timing chain only seems to be available in a kit with the sprockets, and gaskets are expensive. The difference between replacing the bits that need replacing and a full rebuild with new bearings, pistons and liners is only £400.

So I've spent money. Hate doing that, but on the upside £400 is really cheap for a full rebuild. Downside is £1200 is awfully expensive for a quick head gasket swap.

Updates next week when shiny bits start arriving.
Click to expand...
 
just to add my own observations
the main reason for timing chain problems on R4/5s is due to the load on the other end of the cam from the alternator and water pump
gordini 5 engines had duplex setup to allow for this and the twin rocker shafts lumpy cam etc
most of the (money no object) R8 gordini race engines are running with single chain as the timing cover has a hole for bottom pulley driving everything direct hence no boing noises
never rated gordini engine my self as never had the money for a fully built engine needed for reliability

thought the later 1.4 engines had rubber liner seals ?? biggest problem is corrosion to block and bottom of liners preventing sealing have you stripped to check this as you may not have a suitable home for your new bits

the last 5 Gordini engine i had was a genuine service exchange engine i fitted to a renault 6 still sitting in mr G,s barn 15 yrs later :shock:
 
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Mr Reno is there an nice 5 Atmo waiting me in that barn? It has been so long since I have been there I have forgotten what is in stock.Gary
 
Thanks Paul. The timing chain thing seemed odd to me as the 1108 engines never seem to have a problem and both of the 1397 engines here do. Does the TX also have a duplex chain? For the same wear a heavier chain might have more of a chance of touching the rubber insert and bonging. I noted the arrangement doesn't include a crankshaft damper at the end opposite the flywheel, so there should be plenty of torsional excitation to set the chain off.

Hadn't checked all of the liner seating surfaces - first one was perfect, though covered in a brown residue that scrapes off leaving a perfect face - there's no obvious indication of how much of the face was covered by the seal.

Popped out the others and all are fine apart from one which has a small rust pit where the seal might sit which is a bit of a worry. How much does the seal compress when installed? There's perhaps 10 to 20% of the sealing face affected by the pit which is maybe 0.5mm tall and 2mm long. Looks like the seal will cover most of the face, but I'll test the coverage before building to check unless anyone knows the answer and can put my mind at rest.
 
I am usually not one to do any bodges but there is always room for improvisation!! I would suggest thoroughly removing all traces of rust from the pitted area and fill with chemical metal. Very carefully rub down and perodically check using a liner and engineers blue. All you need is for the liner to make a perfect seal on re-assembly.
 
Excellent Steve - you have joined the Dark Side :D I had been pondering exactly the same thing. If that area is important for the seal then it might help. If not it won't do any harm.

Maybe a bit too dark side, but I'm also pondering about what to do with the spare engine. It's been left outside and the head is badly corroded (it's dead) and the pistons seized, but with some decent bits knocking around (and without checking specs) I'm wondering if it could form the basis of a low performance 1400 for Ermintrude. For the sake of a few gaskets it could be a working bottom end.
 
Got the thing back together after a full rebuild. Guess what -mayonnaise again after 20 seconds running. New record. :(

I've probably cocked up on liner seals, though I can't think where they could have gone wrong. This time it's going to the engine builders for them to put together. I'll get them to do a crack test too as one of those could also explain everything.

Quite tempted to stick an 1108 in.
 
Malcolm these heads do crack but you should not have much trouble with the rest.
Salve saco is ace on these engines give him a ring or try Dave wheeler in the first instance.Gary
 
Still haven't rung Dave Wheeler. Do you have a contact number for Salve Saco? They don't appear on the internet.

The engine folk I use reckon they did a 5G motor in the distant past and seem clued up and have the gear.
 
Jeez Malcolm,can't say how sorry I am to see all the bad luck you've struck.
Hopefully you'll have it back and up and running soon. Crossing my fingers for you! -R.
 
Hello Malcolm - really cannot put into words how sorry I am. I looked at the build and I could not fault the way you assembled the engine (with the exceptions you have already mentioned). Surely this has to be a faulty part such as a cracked head. Even if the liner seals were leaking, they won't leak enough due to being compressed 60 lbs per sq" to cause mayonnaise in 20 seconds. I will be really interested to know what is causing the problem. Do stick with this though - putting an 1108cc engine in won't be the same and you would need to 'adjust' the front cross member!!

Steve
 
Sorry to learn about your set back, Malcolm. I wish you better luck next time. Don't give up!
 
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