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R4 vs Dauphine 1959

Dare I ask - is the 1100 head the same as the 875 ?

As far as room is concerned there should not be an issue as I could probably fit a V8 in these without a problem!!

Where abouts are you?

EAD
 
The head and block are different from the 850. My engine wouldn't be all that convenient for you - it just needs the head pulling off and a new valve fitting, but I'm 350 miles south of you in Bedford. Should be possible to find another engine that works.

I do like the idea of a V8 powered Dauphine.
 
Hmmm Have to admit that just after I bought it there was a R5 Turbo for sale on ebay - I think it sold for £800 ish !!!

I would be concerned that the box might not last too long.

Am I right in thinking that if I have an R4 engine currently attached to the gearbox then an R5 one would fit as well ?

EAD
 
There's a few R5 turbo's on ebay every now and again. These are likely to be the Mk2's and the engine won't fit in your car. Even if you found a Mk1 R5 turbo engine, you would have lots of problems grafting everything in to your car. The bog standard R5 Mk1 1100,1300,1400 engine will physically fit as long as they run the right way round as was discussed previously. Another thing is that if you mess the car about too much, it won't have any value, and I would have thought that a 1959 Dauphine in good standard condition is worth a few bob.

It's likely that if you did decide to graft a turbo lump in, the gearbox wouldn't be able to handle the extra power.

Steve
 
The Mk2 R5 engine definately won't go in. The Mk1 Gordini / Turbo would though. But you would need to use the R5 gearbox and associated ancillaries and it would be too much hassle I suppose. Would be interesting though
 
swapping side on the dauphine crownwheel is possible but certainly is not the solution. Hypoid gears have the best efficiency only when they rotate in the direction they were designed. But when you swap side you "force" the assembly to rotate backwards (left-hand turning engine coupled to right-hand turning gearbox). The major problem will be rapid tooth wear, and don't forget the power losses (important for such an engine)
 
Hmmm - had a debate about this - At first it looks like the teeth will drive on the wrong side. But then if you think about the diff "rolling" over the pinion and the individual teeth staying in contact ( The pinion continues to turn in the same direction in this case) I think the drive stays on the same side of the tooth.

But I ve been wrong before !!! ( no it was not me that put in the R4 engine)
 
Shielob, think about it: The engine turns on the opposite direction, thus the pinion turns on the opposite direction (on all forward gears). Now if we "roll" the crownwheel over we will reverse the motion of the driveshafts. The pinion (and hence the crownwheel) will still turn on the opposite direction from which they were designed to work. I was thinking to do this in order to fit a 5-speed R5 gearbox on 845cc left-hand turning engine at some time but didn't do after i figured out the consequences on the life of the crownwheel/pinion.
 
Yeh - you are right - if the engine is turning the wrong way to start with then we end up with the the force on the right side of the tooth !!

If we change only I thing at a time - ie the direction of the engine (and leave the CW as it is0 the car goes back wards this means the force must be on the wrong side of the tooth.

If you then swap the CW to the other side the car goes forwards .....

I'm going to play with my Leggo !!

-- But I have bought an 1100 just in case - should arrive Wednesday ish.

EAD
 
I did gears and stuff as an option at university. The course had a funny name - "Tribology" which is the study of rubbing! Unfortunately it was very dull and I didn't take much in so I will be of very little help here. (Really - I didn't understand a word of it so all that follows could well be wrong).

I'm sure I half remember something about symmetrical profiles on this sort of gear tooth. There was a good reason for this (which I can't remember) but if this is so the gears should be as happy running in either direction. Certainly the differential can run backwards as that's what happens in reverse (the whine is typically from straight cut teeth in the gearbox not the diff). If this is the case it would be a positive advantage to run the diff backwards as that side of the gears would be almost brand new.

My notes are elsewhere (thankfully) so next to no chance of confirming this anytime soon. Of course if it was me I'd bung the 1100 in and at least be able to go in the correct direction for a while. :D

:clementi:

PS - Could a tribology expert join the forum to clarify all this? Otherwise I'll have to let the Frederick the frog take a differential apart to find out.
 
If you change the direction of rotation of the engine, all will be fine, you will have an R4 engine but your gearbox (and car) will think it has a Dauphine one. just for fun let's think about it: mirror profile camshaft, and opposite cut on distributor skew gear as Pieter pointed. You should turn around the connecting rods, as the caps are cut at an angle, and also the piston pin should have the offset on the correct side. Also you will need a clutch disc for a right-hand turning engine. if you think you have finished, you are wrong. you will need opposite turning starter motor and dynamo. And water pump, too (or at least impeller). Fun?!!! I would rather opt for Lego...
Clementine, it is a matter of machine elements and gearing design, rather than tribology (I have graduated as an engineer, too). Hypoid gears have a definite cut depending of their normal direction of rotation. If you have opened both left-and right-hand turning 354s you will have noticed the "opposite" cut on their pinions. Of course a crownwheel/pinion assembly will turn backwardr, but with reduced efficiency. Some time ago, this had been a topic of discussion at an automotive magazine here in Greece, whether a car would lose power transmitted to the wheels when in reverse, and the final (theoretical) conclusion was, yes.
 
Both good points. The 1100cc engine should be fine in the Dauphine because it turns the same way as the original engine. There is no need to play with lego.

The teeth in the crownwheel do tend to be cut at an angle rather than on the radial. I'm guessing a major reason is to reduce gear noise, but if they do reverse the angle of cut with reversed direction then that could well be because of wear considerations - would it reduce force on some of the bearings?

:clementi:
 
The accurate term of description of this cut is "hyperboloid" gears (abbreviated to "hypoid"). They are spiral cut grars but their axises do not meet. The main reason of choosing spiral gears instead of straight cut gears is that the load is distributed on more than one tooth at a time, and therefore they can transfer higher loads. Noise reduction is a useful side-effect. Hypoid gearing has the added advance that the pinion is meshed at a level lower (or higher) than the crownwheel axis, this is helpful to make a more compast casing. Wear issue is more important on the teeth rather than on bearings, if you reverse the motion, the load goes to the opposite pinion bearing but is the same. As there are important axial loads, all pinions are equipped with bearings that can withstand them (2 taper roller bearings for example).


Clementine said:
Both good points. The 1100cc engine should be fine in the Dauphine because it turns the same way as the original engine. There is no need to play with lego.

The teeth in the crownwheel do tend to be cut at an angle rather than on the radial. I'm guessing a major reason is to reduce gear noise, but if they do reverse the angle of cut with reversed direction then that could well be because of wear considerations - would it reduce force on some of the bearings?

:clementi:
Click to expand...
 
I have no idea of hiporbolidalical stuff, but are you SURE the 1100 R4 Engine turns the opposite way? Never heard of that. What gearbox does this R4 use?
I'm just guessing here, but have you looked at rotation direction in relation to camshaft-pushrods-distribution position on the block? I wouldn't be surprised if the only thing that's on the opposite side is the flywheel-clutch assembly...

Ok, ok I'll be quiet now
 
Yeh bad news at this stage is not welcome !!

Only joking. ......

I am lead to believe that its all to do with 6 and 12 V electrics and whether the car was fitted with a starting handel. Also the R4 starting handel went via the gearbox which was at the front -- Fly wheel end --where as the Dauphine went in the back - I guess most French folk are right handed cos if you crank clockwise from the back you go one way but .........

( Can we have a smiley for BOLOCX please? )

My 1100 arrived this week so I'm going to clean it and bolt on the starter motor and ........

If it goes the wrong way I shall use the Zetec I bought and enter reversing competitions !
 
Enrique, it is true that the five bearing R4 engines (852cc,956cc,1108cc)turn the opposithe way than three-bearing (603cc,747cc,782cc,845cc). The gearbox is exactly the same (354) but with the crownwheel located on the opposite site and inversed cut on the teeth of crownwheel/pinion assembly. The final drive ratio on berline 1108cc R4s is also higher (3,67:1) while the fourgonettes had the same ratio as in the smaller engines (4,125:1). Those engines were designed as right hand turning in the early '60s to be fitted on the R8 and later R10 (on the rear of the car) When Renault decided to fit it on the R4 on '70s, there was no need of a starting handle and did not change its direction of rotation compared to R8.
 
....but with the crownwheel located on the opposite site and inversed cut on the teeth of crownwheel/pinion assembly.....

Wouldn't changing those two parts for the opposite located and opposite cut ones, be a solution?
 
Yes, it would be... But Dauphines had only right-hand turning engines, so there isn't a crownwheel/pinion assembly that will fit. By looking at manuals, though, it seems that by replacing the secondary shaft-pinion and crownwheel assembly, you can change the direction of rotation. Interesting but pointless, why should anyone do it???
 
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