Eoynteenie
Planning an Advent4
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i had a motorbike that did this, but that was every gear part from 3rd
- Thread starter malcolm
- Start date
i had a motorbike that did this, but that was every gear part from 3rd
mike4gtl
Mad many would insit upon
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I hate to think what 27 or 40 year old electrics will be like to repair on a yaris or alike
Firstly OH DEAR Lord S, I can keep your BX going but the Yaris, erm, you will have to push it into the shed and leave it as sparks are not my forte.
And I have never seen you in a wax jacket before now, you need a tweed one to add to your collection
malcolm
& Clementine the Cat
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I wonder if the answer is to learn about these electrics so we can fix them ourselves.
In the past I've run cars that were a bit old and bought for really cheap. I guess that's because owners felt the cars would be written off by the cost of some mechanicing and maybe the odd bit of welding.
Now I'm in exactly the same position as those owners. The apparent lack of documentation for the electrics on modern cars makes them very tricky to diagnose and fix. I just can't believe I could be at the whim of a spotty mechanic changing bits and charging me for them with the only alternative being scrapping the car.
But now we've got the internet and a bunch of people in the same boat probably the information needed will get around.
In my case the information does seem to be moving in the right direction but it's taking a lot of time and effort. 2 weeks off the road so far and expecting at least another 2. Don't like running the R4 in winter - it'll go rusty and visibility is poor.
In the past I've run cars that were a bit old and bought for really cheap. I guess that's because owners felt the cars would be written off by the cost of some mechanicing and maybe the odd bit of welding.
Now I'm in exactly the same position as those owners. The apparent lack of documentation for the electrics on modern cars makes them very tricky to diagnose and fix. I just can't believe I could be at the whim of a spotty mechanic changing bits and charging me for them with the only alternative being scrapping the car.
But now we've got the internet and a bunch of people in the same boat probably the information needed will get around.
In my case the information does seem to be moving in the right direction but it's taking a lot of time and effort. 2 weeks off the road so far and expecting at least another 2. Don't like running the R4 in winter - it'll go rusty and visibility is poor.
pepper
Pepper The One and Only!
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I'm afraid it'll be the new kids running through college who'll be able to understand all these new electrical systems!
Although TBH, I'm not too bad at it, it takes a methodical system and checking all the simple basic things like the earths, (which are far more important than they used to be)
I do hate garage mechanics seemingly wanting to just change parts willy nilly to see if it'll fix it. The best place I've ever used if I have electrical problems is a place called Carwoods, their head office is local to me in Coventry and the first thing I do if I can't manage it is to get them to run their diagnostics for me.
I've probably said before that a Transit that I had recently had been diagnosed with a faulty fuel pump and had been quoted at £2500 to repair, it was only a stuck turbo waste gate and a cracked inlet manifold, cost even for them to fix the problems was £600, if I'd taken it away and had the time to sort it, it would have just been a second hand manifold and the diagnosis to pay for, so about £200...
I see loads of cars in our scrap yard, with no rust or corrosion anywhere, I bet a lot of them are being written off with tiny small minor electrical issues!
Although TBH, I'm not too bad at it, it takes a methodical system and checking all the simple basic things like the earths, (which are far more important than they used to be)
I do hate garage mechanics seemingly wanting to just change parts willy nilly to see if it'll fix it. The best place I've ever used if I have electrical problems is a place called Carwoods, their head office is local to me in Coventry and the first thing I do if I can't manage it is to get them to run their diagnostics for me.
I've probably said before that a Transit that I had recently had been diagnosed with a faulty fuel pump and had been quoted at £2500 to repair, it was only a stuck turbo waste gate and a cracked inlet manifold, cost even for them to fix the problems was £600, if I'd taken it away and had the time to sort it, it would have just been a second hand manifold and the diagnosis to pay for, so about £200...
I see loads of cars in our scrap yard, with no rust or corrosion anywhere, I bet a lot of them are being written off with tiny small minor electrical issues!
I don't know, current vehicle electronics I can see being a right pain as its basically a black box with custom chips and no real information on how its suppose to work. This will be even worse with an electric car. I hate to think about "I drove thu the big puddle in the electric car now they want £2000 for a new controller" Unlike an old r4 engine you cant confirm a second hand black box works by firing it up as all sorts of problems might be present. Also so many modern cars seem to fail in the simple technical aspects in with the R4 rules !
Fingers crossed in a few years they will go back to being generic off the shelf parts like things use to be. "generic lucas medium size engine ecu"
The r4 visibility isn't that bad, the A-pillars are not huge so dont get in the way too much and the rear view visibility is good compared with some hondas.
Fingers crossed in a few years they will go back to being generic off the shelf parts like things use to be. "generic lucas medium size engine ecu"
The r4 visibility isn't that bad, the A-pillars are not huge so dont get in the way too much and the rear view visibility is good compared with some hondas.
barnfind
Enthusiast
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The End of the Classic car?
I wonder if we have seen the last of the restorable classic car, in that the current generation will prove unrepairable electronically after a decade or so and will be scrapped in spite of being in otherwise good fettle (as indeed was reported recently on this very forum,) just because of dodgy electronics.
In spite of the 'official' line that older cars should be discouraged and more efficient modern cars encouraged, the reality when whole life environmental costs are taken into account is often far from green (especially where battery driven vehicles are concerned) although certain sections of the eco-community, would have us believe otherwise.
I wonder if we have seen the last of the restorable classic car, in that the current generation will prove unrepairable electronically after a decade or so and will be scrapped in spite of being in otherwise good fettle (as indeed was reported recently on this very forum,) just because of dodgy electronics.
In spite of the 'official' line that older cars should be discouraged and more efficient modern cars encouraged, the reality when whole life environmental costs are taken into account is often far from green (especially where battery driven vehicles are concerned) although certain sections of the eco-community, would have us believe otherwise.
Lobster
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I don't think so. At least I hope not.
I think as technology advances and prices come down then the diagnostic kit will become cheaper and more accesible. There are some cases where the technology will make the cars unrepairable but I would hope that in most cases there will be people with the knowledge and equipment to fix them. Think of it this way, sticking modern engines in older cars is not uncommon and you can get a modern off the shelf ECU to run the new Zetec motor in your MG or whatever. Having an ECU in an old car would have been unthinkable 15 years back but is no real issue now.
I think Malcolms right in that the way around this is to learn how it works.
Eoynteenie
Planning an Advent4
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i know where you are coming from....but it sounds like a challenge...
I'm not sure the diagnostic kits are the problem tho, as even with the right kit the answer to it doesn't work is almost always put a new one in. If you don't have a new one or more importantly if a new one is £500 its a problem!
Wiring issues can still be solved with a multimeter however!
Wiring issues can still be solved with a multimeter however!
mike4gtl
Mad many would insit upon
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There will always be a job for an electrician. My mum was told by the dealers her Zafira needed a new ecu, so dad called the local mobile mechanic and he fixed her car in under an hour for £200 and a case of beer. Garages are going bust left, right and centre so they are targeting people they think they can make a few pennies out of, luckily my mum knew better.
Lesson, get several quotes first. If you wanted a roof repairing or whatever you wouldn't just say fix it unless it was a friend offering.
Lesson, get several quotes first. If you wanted a roof repairing or whatever you wouldn't just say fix it unless it was a friend offering.
malcolm
& Clementine the Cat
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I'm making some progress on the 406 but it's a learning curve. A friend of a friend who knows things suggested looking at some wiring connectors under the driver footwell carpet. True enough they had got wet and were corroded. Since then it's driving me mad at every turn. Car has been immobilised for 2 weeks.
Pulled them connectors apart to dry them out and because they were corroded a few wires fell off.
Could I get wiring info to see where they went? Could I heck - Haynes manual won't cover that sort of thing any more. It turns out after probably 20 hours internet searching that I can get the info. Trying that now.
It's not about learning how to plug a diagnistics machine in. That's easy to figure out and they are available on eBay. It's the supporting information like wiring diagrams that are closely guarded by the manufacturers. Possible to get the info but time consuming.
So nice to have a Renault 4 that just starts. It's a miracle of the modern age.
Pulled them connectors apart to dry them out and because they were corroded a few wires fell off.
Could I get wiring info to see where they went? Could I heck - Haynes manual won't cover that sort of thing any more. It turns out after probably 20 hours internet searching that I can get the info. Trying that now.
It's not about learning how to plug a diagnistics machine in. That's easy to figure out and they are available on eBay. It's the supporting information like wiring diagrams that are closely guarded by the manufacturers. Possible to get the info but time consuming.
So nice to have a Renault 4 that just starts. It's a miracle of the modern age.
jjad
Enthusiast
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On Tuesday our C4 came up with the warning 'anti-pollution faulty', so presumably something about the particulate filter being clogged or needing some more of the special Eoyls liquid that burns off the rubbish in the filter every now and then. It then went into limp mode and cut out several times, eventually saying 'STOP'.
Of course, handbook says to take to Citroen dealer and hearing stories of other garages not being able to fully read the Citroen codes thought I'd better do that. Plus I'm not sure who stocks the Eoyls fluid.
The error codes were for low fuel pressure (so nothing to do with the particulate filter) and a new fuel filter was fitted at great expense (you have to remove all sorts of hoses to even see the fuel filter and then it's still tucked away - that's why I've not got around to doing it).
So lessons learnt: Citroen warnings are inaccurate (why can't they show the actual error or code? I guess they don't want people to fix things themselves). Replace the fuel filter more often that the 30,000 miles that Citroen recommends.
So frustrating as these things are so much easier and cheaper in the R4.
Of course, handbook says to take to Citroen dealer and hearing stories of other garages not being able to fully read the Citroen codes thought I'd better do that. Plus I'm not sure who stocks the Eoyls fluid.
The error codes were for low fuel pressure (so nothing to do with the particulate filter) and a new fuel filter was fitted at great expense (you have to remove all sorts of hoses to even see the fuel filter and then it's still tucked away - that's why I've not got around to doing it).
So lessons learnt: Citroen warnings are inaccurate (why can't they show the actual error or code? I guess they don't want people to fix things themselves). Replace the fuel filter more often that the 30,000 miles that Citroen recommends.
So frustrating as these things are so much easier and cheaper in the R4.
malcolm
& Clementine the Cat
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You can have your own diagnostic kit cloned in China from the Pug/Citroen dealer kit fairly cheaply - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lexia-3-P...iagnostic_Tools_Equipment&hash=item3a6da1ad77
I bought one and can run it only on an XP laptop. You are welcome to use it.
The manufacturers seem to keep info close to their chest. It's been driving me mad trying to get wiring information. Ended up persuading someone to send me photos of a wiring connector to see how his wires were attached. Some discs from eBay turning up soon with the info the dealers have. It's not a lot of info which explains why they experiment with swapping expensive things when they try to fix stuff.
Mine is working again (hopefully) after bypassing a couple of corroded connectors but I got very close to scrapping the thing along the way.
A lot more learning to do before I'll be comfortable running the thing, but half the information is out there. It's the other half we need clever people to guess at.
Through all this the idea of a car that starts when you turn the key without being immobilised and the alarm going off seemed like an impossible dream. I love the way the little Renault 4s just kind of work. It's been handy.
I bought one and can run it only on an XP laptop. You are welcome to use it.
The manufacturers seem to keep info close to their chest. It's been driving me mad trying to get wiring information. Ended up persuading someone to send me photos of a wiring connector to see how his wires were attached. Some discs from eBay turning up soon with the info the dealers have. It's not a lot of info which explains why they experiment with swapping expensive things when they try to fix stuff.
Mine is working again (hopefully) after bypassing a couple of corroded connectors but I got very close to scrapping the thing along the way.
A lot more learning to do before I'll be comfortable running the thing, but half the information is out there. It's the other half we need clever people to guess at.
Through all this the idea of a car that starts when you turn the key without being immobilised and the alarm going off seemed like an impossible dream. I love the way the little Renault 4s just kind of work. It's been handy.
pepper
Pepper The One and Only!
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Pool Malcolm, having to deal with modern cars and their electrics are a huge problem!
Judiths Twingo did a similar thing (no alarm thank god) and we found that the wiring loom had been chafed in half and it caused all sorts of weird and wonderful problems, ending up at being totally immobilised, till we found the problem, cut it all out, repaired and all was fine again.
Judiths Twingo did a similar thing (no alarm thank god) and we found that the wiring loom had been chafed in half and it caused all sorts of weird and wonderful problems, ending up at being totally immobilised, till we found the problem, cut it all out, repaired and all was fine again.
jjad
Enthusiast
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Sorry Malcolm, I forgot to thank you for your kind offer
Hopefully it's got over its hiccup (seems to be fine now). Are you using your Peugeot now? Hope it's going OK.
Jonathan