A tale for two 4s (GTLs)

bobjacqs · May 24, 2016

Hi Jonathan, that's a very valid point. However, I'm leaving the question of what level of restoration I want to achieve until I can properly assess the state if the chassis. Then l'll decide. Thanks for your interest. Bob.

JonathanT · May 25, 2016

Hello Bob

Yes good idea. It's easier to weld the chassis though compared with the complexity of the body. If you intend to learn how to weld it's a very good place to start. When I started my project I didn't know how to weld and was hoping to get someone over to weld sections I had prepared. However I quickly realised it needed to be built up as several body parts are a sandwich of two or three sheets of steel.Asking for someone go keep coming backwards and forwards would have been impossibly expensive. As it turned out the skill was relatively quickly learned but the time it took was considerable. I had my chassis repaired very professionally by Renault Reborn who put a new floor in and side member .All held ridgid on a special chassis jig.

bobjacqs · May 25, 2016

Hi Jonathan,Thanks for your comments, i really do value the feedback. I'm confused about your comment about welding your chassis. I'm not sure if you taught yourself how to weld on your chassis or got it all done at Renault Reborn. I was thinking of cleaning up my chassis ready for welding and then taking it to my mechanic who looks after my Lotus as he does welding on classic cars, though he does not have a jig. Would you recommend just taking it to an expert or having a go myself? One consideration is that I am working in a domestic garage, integral with the house. Best wishes, Bob

Paul Narramore · May 25, 2016

Bob, Perhaps Jonathan meant that "the skill was relatively quickly learned" but he then took it to Renault Reborn who did the welding PROPERLY? ;-)

JonathanT · May 25, 2016

Sorry Ive confused everyone...

When I took my chassis to Renault Reborn I couldn't weld.

Now I can, I possibly would have done it myself but Renault reborn had the skills to straighten the chassis on their jig as my chassis had been in a smash and needed correction.

I was then left with the body which I was hoping to make parts for then have someone weld for me at home or at their workshop.

Then I decided it would be better if I learned how to do it myself. Which I did whilst the chassis was away being repaired at Renault Reborn.
(I got a number of people in to look at it and give me a quote but there was an awful lot of sucking of teeth and some very high quotes for the labour time - in excess £1700+vat )

The point im making is the chassis consists of mainly flat sheets of steel and is all relatively accessible. Though the rear suspension points are doubled up inside. There are many on here who have made successful repairs a section at a time and cross checking alignment as they go.

Maybe temporarily bracing the chassis would help keep it all true.

So this would be a good learning ground before the more complex shapes and structures of the body.

As you will have seen from my thread I made a wooden trolley to shift the body about within the garage so I could get to it more easily and weld it up. The body cannot be allowed to sit on its cills or they will bend and potentially distort the body.

I only have a single garage but managed it well with the aid of that trolley. (pushing it outside to weld)

If you are paying someone to weld the chassis it could be an expensive route. Renault Reborn were very reasonable for the work undertaken but all the logistics meant it was somewhat similar to a replacement chassis cost. Doing it yourself even with the cost of the welder will bring it within more realistic figures if you can master it.

Hope this helps

Ps remove my photos from your thread if you wish

Paul Narramore · May 25, 2016

Bloody 'eck, what a lovely job you made/are making of the body repairs. I have been given an old MIG welder and have yet to try it out. Years ago, I had a go at welding my 2CV bodyshell using a gasless MIG welder. My pathetic efforts were abysmal and I was later advised to never, ever, ever use a gasless welder. Somewhere, perhaps within these hallowed pages is a link to welding advice using a MIG welder. I must look for it.

malcolm · May 25, 2016

There is always the website originally set up to help Renault 4 owners with MIG welding: www.mig-welding.co.uk There are tutorials on there.

The cheap welders can be very difficult to use. For thinner metal you would want a budget of over £500 for something properly useable, and would need to use it with Argon/CO2 mix gas. I've used Portamig welders for the last 10 years - they have good wire feeds and are stable at the low amps you need for French tin.

I don't think it is a big problem if the workshop is attached to the house. More a problem if you leave anything flammable around. If it were me on a learning mission or on a budget I would do the welding myself. The rear suspension chassis jig (on Fredrick's tech tips pages) is useful as the holes need to be bang on, but otherwise so long as you bear in mind the chassis has no torsional stiffness when the floor is removed and needs to be propped on something to stop it from twisting.

bobjacqs · Jun 2, 2016

Hi Jonathan, When you say "The body cannot be allowed to sit on its cills or they will bend and potentially distort the body"... isn't your car sitting on the cills on your wooden trolley?
Thanks
Bob

JonathanT · Jun 3, 2016

Hi Bob

What I mean is the lower edge of the outer cill. Its like a letter 'C' shape - this part (The part thats visible on the outside) isnt strong. Its a kind of valance. the bit designed to take the weight is flat and horizontal. The tubular loops of the body frame are brazed to it at 6 points. Its this flat part that meets the chassis top surface and meets my wooden trolly in the same way.

The trolley is finished with now and is in Rushall Norfolk - I reckon you could have it but its a long way from you

JonathanT · Jun 3, 2016

Further to Malcolms I used a Sealy gas mig bought for about £300 I can send you details - It worked really well and no issues at all with wire feed which I gather is a common problem. The Sealy welders are semi pro and heavier construction. It certainly took some stick

What I would strongly advise is buying gas in a big bottle a lot cheaper than the little ones.

Then again your tame welder friend maybe your answer

bobjacqs · Jun 3, 2016

Thanks for the clarification. That's very kind you you Jonathan, but it's probably cheaper for me to make one than the petrol over there. Cheers, BOb.

bobjacqs · Jun 4, 2016

Help! Today I returned to the job I described and left on 22 May (see link), ie separating the body from the chassis when it has been welded together in the rear passenger doorway. A lot seems to have happened on this thread since then, but nothing to C840LEW. Anyway, I haven't progressed very far today. I made the cut from the rear wheel arch, perhaps not low enough but I have severed the plate that had been welded on there.

The problem is now inside the car. I can get an ultra thin angle grinder (4.5 inch) under the rear floor (and thus under the welded in plate) and under the side lip on the cill but it is still not free. Will I have to perform major surgery? If so, where would you advise me to cut? I have now cleared away all the filler and we can see another plate. How this is joined to the chassis, I'm not sure but it still seems to be fixed. I put a jack under the rear floor and it lifts the body at the back except that corner.

Paul Narramore · Jun 4, 2016

bobjacqs said:
Help! Today I returned to the job I described and left on 22 May (see link), ie separating the body from the chassis when it has been welded together in the rear passenger doorway. A lot seems to have happened on this thread since then, but nothing to C840LEW. Anyway, I haven't progressed very far today. I made the cut from the rear wheel arch, perhaps not low enough but I have severed the plate that had been welded on there.
View attachment 16150
The problem is now inside the car. I can get an ultra thin angle grinder (4.5 inch) under the rear floor (and thus under the welded in plate) and under the side lip on the cill but it is still not free. Will I have to perform major surgery? If so, where would you advise me to cut? I have now cleared away all the filler and we can see another plate. How this is joined to the chassis, I'm not sure but it still seems to be fixed. I put a jack under the rear floor and it lifts the body at the back except that corner.
View attachment 16151

Bob, I think it is almost impossible for anybody other than the bodger to advise you what has been welded to what. Personally I think it's simply a matter of patience, cutting away anything hold the body's hell and chassis together until the two separate. Good luck anyway.

Paul Narramore · Jun 4, 2016

Bodyshell

bobjacqs · Jun 4, 2016

Body's hell might have been right :-)

malcolm · Jun 5, 2016

It looks like there is a patch on top of a patch there. I doubt they intended to weld the body to the chassis there, just the weld dropped through and stuck. Maybe try to pop it off with a screwdriver or cold chisel. Otherwise extract the patch(es) by cutting just inside the weld. I would avoid trying to get a cutting disc between the two panels - they have a habit of snagging and breaking up at high speed.

bobjacqs · Jun 7, 2016

I'm getting close now to being ready to separate body from chassis. I've left wiring loom and dashboard and centre console (mainly because it looked difficult to remove them) and everything that connects the two parts has been removed (I hope) except the steering column which I'll disconnect at the last minute. I'll then have the problem of not knowing where to put the body as I think I'll remove the engine next and then clean up and weld the chassis so that bit will have to go back into the garage and the body somewhere else. Maybe I'll rent a lockup. The seats, doors and body panels are already in my way.

mojobaby · Jun 7, 2016

Hi Bob, great progress so far.

In case I forget to mention it later, when you remove the steering rack, there are 2 shims that will undoubtedly fall out when you undo the bolts. The shims are to do with the height setting of the steering rack and are unique to each side and are numbered.

It's best to take a photo or make a note somewhere so you can refer to it later down the line.

I didn't even know that they were there until I found them about 3 days later under the car. You can see what they look like here:
http://www.renault4.co.uk/forum/threads/look-what-i-found.5611/page-9